Podcasts

 

CUES Podcast 129 Matthew Bidwell on Employee Engagement

April 2022

By Matthew Bidwell

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:04

You're listening to the CUES Podcast episode 129.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:09

Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. As you know, on the CUES Podcast, you can hear from a wide range of cross-industry experts discussing trends and topics relevant to you.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:19

My name is Lisa Hochgraf, and I'm Senior Editor for CUES and its credit union management magazine. I will be your host today.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:26

On today's show, we will be talking about employee engagement. It's a Great Resignation world out there where the pandemic has caused a lot of people to rethink their relationship with their work. This current circumstance makes it more critical than ever for credit unions to find ways to engage their employees.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:43

Our guest today, Matthew Bidwell Ph.D., provides a wonderful assist in better understanding what engagement is and just how employers can foster it. Bidwell is an associate professor of management at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. His research examines new patterns in work and employment, and his latest projects explore how organizations balance internal promotions with external hiring, and how people develop careers within and across firms.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:11

If you like what you hear today on the show, I hope you'll register to hear Bidwell speak at TalentNEXT coming up in May in Austin, Texas. You can get all the details about the event at cues.org/talentnext.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:26

So let's get started.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:30

Welcome to the CUES Podcast Matthew.

 

Matthew Bidwell  01:32

Thank you. Thank you for having me on here.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:34

Before we get into talking about engagement, I'd like to help our listeners get to know you a little bit better. The way I often do this is by inviting our guests to share a professional quote or a mantra that they live by. Would you have such a quote or a mantra to share?

 

Matthew Bidwell  01:49

I think the closest that I have so a quote that sometimes springs to mind, it's probably from a much less erudite source than most of the ones that you get here. There's a series of books by a British comic fantasy writer called Eric Pratchett that I'm also surprisingly well-written, surprisingly thoughtful. There's one of the characters there has a um ... there's a phrase in one of the books, "You do the job that's in front of you," which sometimes I find quite useful. So I think we're going to talk a little bit about engagement. On the days when I'm not necessarily feeling super engaged, but there are things that I'm not sure exactly how to do, or things that are just tough, I just tell myself some days, you just do the job that's in front of you.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  02:31

I like that a lot. I think about the same thing. And sometimes I call it the next right step. I have 1000 I could pick from. If I can just figure out what the next right step is, then I'll be on the pathway again.

 

Matthew Bidwell  02:42

Yeah, sometimes what you have to do gets chosen for you, so you just do it.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  02:46

So I wondered if we might start off by talking a little bit more about the sources of employee engagement. Are there some top ones that you'd like to focus on?

 

Matthew Bidwell  02:55

Yeah, I mean, lots and maybe I might also start as well, just by talking a little bit about what we mean by employee engagement is kind of a technical answer to that and the way we tend to actually use it in practice.

 

Matthew Bidwell  03:06

So psychologists, I guess, you know, it's like how there are allegedly 300 words for snow or whatever there be you have. I believe that's completely inaccurate. But anyway, so let's pretend there actually were. Psychologists have about 300 different words for what we think about as employee engagement based around kind of, you know, how we feel about the job, how we feel about a company, how we feel about our work today, and so on. Technically, I think when psychologists talk about engagement, what they're often talking about is kind of specifically how we feel about the particular tasks that we're doing right now. It's very work-related, I think, when we talk about it.

 

Matthew Bidwell  03:42

Outside the halls of psychology, we're more likely to be talking about just how excited we are to be coming into work generally. So kind of when I'm thinking about employee engagement, I am thinking about how happy am I come into work on a given day, and what drives that. And yet, in many ways, there are actually quite a lot of different things that drive engagement. And I think one of the best things we can do is kind of bear in mind all of them and think about how each of them for us contributes.

 

Matthew Bidwell  04:08

So there's a lovely little framework that a professor at Penn, guy called Martin Seligman, came up with, he calls it the perma framework, P E R M A. He actually uses a slightly different context, just thinking about why some people are happy. But I find it works perfectly for engagement of thinking about why people are happy in their job.

 

Matthew Bidwell  04:27

So the P in his framework stands for positive emotions, and particularly just the fact that some people just experience positive emotions more than other people. So there're always going to be some people are more engaged. I've made it very clear that when I come back in my next life, I want to come back as a spaniel. I don't know if you've seen the kind of running around they just get desperately excited about absolutely everything. I think that I think they're very lucky. I'm somewhat towards the other end of the scale. But yeah, some of us are very good at tuning into those positive emotions kind of feeling that excitement about anything new. Others of us may on those get jaded look for other things that that can get us excited.

 

Matthew Bidwell  05:04

Um, second part of his framework, this E, is just being engaged by the work itself. And this is kind of a lot of interest about our ability to lose ourselves in tasks, that idea of kind of losing track of the time. And I think for most of us, there are some things that we do, maybe outside our work, where that happens. I mean, computer games are like, perfectly designed for this, the entire idea of them is they are so absorbing that we tune out everything else. And work can sometimes be like that. And I think we think one of the reasons why that test happens, we get very absorbed in things when the challenges that they represent are a very good fit for our skills. So it's something that if we really try hard, we can do it. We're not going to get bored, you know, if it's too easy, we're going to get bored. If it's too hard, we get turned off and burnout, but it's just hard enough. So we have that continual kind of feedback. Yeah, you're just doing this, but you got to keep trying, that often, we find quite engaging. So kind of the challenge of what we're doing, and how it meshes with our skills is important.

 

Matthew Bidwell  06:08

Now, the piece that goes into this engagement relationships, the R is relationships, now how excited we are to show up to work every day, a big part of that is who we're going to meet there. Our relationship with our immediate supervisor, our manager, and so on is very important, but also kind of those relationships with our teammates, I think the last two really matter.

 

Matthew Bidwell  06:28

So M in the perma framework is for meaning. And this is something I mean, we spend so much time at work, we look for meaning, try and understand meaning in what we do. And so we find it a lot easier to feel happy about what we're doing if we feel it's accomplishing something that that's really worthwhile. We want to think most of us in some way or another want to change the world. We want to make it a slightly better place. And that's an awful lot easier if we feel that we get to help people in what we do rather than if we feel you know, just shuffling papers around and things like that.

 

Matthew Bidwell  07:00

And then the final thing, maybe the most important is accomplishment. And there's actually there's been, I think some some very interesting debates that have gone on about kind of what it means to be happy. You know, some people saying is it just doing things that we enjoy, so is the secret to happiness, just, you know, watching as much Netflix as possible and eating as much chocolate as possible. You could make a strong case. But I think that a lot of people say no, there is something about this kind of we seek accomplishment, we seek a sense of achievement, even if we don't always love every step towards doing so. It can be quite hard to feel this fulfilled unless we have a sense of achievement.

 

Matthew Bidwell  07:37

And that I think at work, couple of things are really important for feeding into that. So one is seeing the results of our work, getting feedback work, where we can quickly see what we achieved, who we helped, how we change things. We're going to have a sense of accomplishment in a way that we're not with kind of work that's much less tangible. But the other big thing that we find is a lot of it is about a sense of ownership. If we're left free to decide how to do the work, to make some important decisions ourselves, we start to feel ownership of it. And so those results that we achieve, it's not just that something good happened. But that wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for me. And that gives us a tremendous sense of accomplishment. So that kind of feedback, but also having the autonomy to figure out how to do the work ourselves that contributes to accomplishment.

 

Matthew Bidwell  08:24

So it was kind of when I think about what might make me excited to come into work, there are a lot of things that go into it, potentially a lot of things that can go wrong, right, but kind of a lot of things also that that are going to shape how I feel about my work, how pleased I am with it. That's a great way to frame engagement with PERMA, right? That was PERMA all the different facets in that acronym.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  08:46

I find it interesting that you say there are a lot of things that can go wrong. And my next question kind of points at that, because I'm curious about, based on the sources of engagement that you just talked about, how can HR leaders or people leaders or cultural leaders or whatever they call themselves these days, ensure that people find their jobs engaging? And the flip side of that coin is, how can they help them? Or help the culture avoid the pitfalls of engagement?

 

Matthew Bidwell  09:11

Yeah, no, it is. I mean, we we could probably do a great podcast, couldn't we on how to disengage people? You know, and I am sure there are a lot of great managers who we could bring on give some really good insight into this. Yeah. Firstly, I always really like to micromanage my people. I find if I micromanage, I can really drive that engagement really far down. It takes a certain time. So yes, there's a lot that we can do, you know, speaking at the moment, right. So as we record this, everyone's talking about the Great Resignation. So it is clear that there are a lot of people out there who are very happy to leave their jobs, given the first chance to do so. And so yes, I think there are do's and don'ts here.

 

Matthew Bidwell  09:47

Something that I love to do when I'm teaching is to give people some time to think about what's the job that they've had where they were the most excited and engaged and what's the job that they've had where they were the least excited and engaged. People have a lot of stories about the jobs where they were disengaged, I sometimes feel like I'm doing group therapy, getting them to talk through those experiences. But yes, we kind of see both with our managers.

 

Matthew Bidwell  10:11

So what are some of the key things, engagement challenging people in the work. People want to be, they want the right degree of stretch, right? They don't want to be bored. They don't want to do impossible work. But they want to get to use a variety of skills. And so finding ways to give people new experiences to challenge them is an important way to engage them.

 

Matthew Bidwell  10:31

This relationship piece, I mean, when I talk to people about you know, when we disengaged, when they had a leader, they didn't trust, when they had somebody who they felt didn't have their back, who belittled them, that didn't support them, maybe took credit for their work, they felt really disengaged. When they felt that they were being supported by someone, when they had a manager who they felt had their interests at heart, it was a lot easier for them to kind of come to the work feeling, you know, somebody is looking out for me, now I want to do the best job and kind of contribute back. And so I think building those kinds of relationships and contributing support are important.

 

Matthew Bidwell  11:07

The meaning piece. Leaders have a central role in that. I mean, all of our jobs, we can see either as really important or really menial, right? I mean, jobs can be either meaningful or meaningless. And a lot of it is how they're framed. You know, if I feel like just another bureaucrat, it can be hard to get engaged. If on the other hand, I feel inspired by the company's mission, if I feel that the bureaucracy that I'm working within is doing important work and really achieving things, if I feel as an organization as a whole, we're moving in the right direction, I'm more likely to find it meaningful.

 

Matthew Bidwell  11:44

Um one of my colleagues, guy called Drew Carton here at Wharton, has a lovely study where he talks about kind of the creation of meaning in NASA's putting a man on the moon, you know, talking about how you know, even the janitors. You ask them what they're doing as they're kind of sweeping the floor, they say, "I'm putting a man on the moon." They were, right? They were putting a man on the moon just as much as anybody else was. But the fact that the organization was able to craft a compelling vision so that everybody knew what it was that they were trying to do and felt that they were contributing to it meant that people could find their work meaningful, even if there are other ways we can construe that work where it would feel kind of much less important.

 

Matthew Bidwell  12:21

And so I think crafting that vision and communicating and helping people to understand how they're really helping others, I think is valuable. And then like I say, "Don't micromanage," right? I mean, the one thing that always comes out, people hate being micromanaged. It's hard as a manager, right? Because that means giving up a certain amount of control, means you have to really trust your people a little bit to do it. But providing people that autonomy, really critically important.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  12:47

Oh, for sure. I think about that in my parenting too, that as my son becomes an 18-year-old, he's technically an adult, and I'm in that bridge place where I still need to help with some things and talk about safety. But on the flip side, he needs to do a lot himself, and that letting go things, setting that vision of safety or health or good study or whatever it is, and then letting go and letting him do is important.

 

Matthew Bidwell  13:09

Yeah, I mean, it's not easy. I mean, this is the, you know, I spend all my time teaching, "You don't micromanage." And then sometimes when you're working with us, we kind of just want to take it all over because we know we can do it better. Finding that balance is hard, but it is really important for engaging people.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  13:23

Right on. I'm really pleased that you'll be speaking at our new talent next event in May in Austin, in Texas, where teams of top people in charge of talent accordions will come together to learn and to share ideas. The idea is actually to have teams of the people people at credit unions come together from oh, maybe there'll be two or three people from the HR team at a credit union in attendance together. So what are some ways that you think that the people that work on culture and people and engagement at credit unions--that might be the CEO and might be the VP of HR, the chief talent officer--how can those people work together best so that they're more effective when it comes to engagement?

 

Matthew Bidwell  14:03

Um, you know, I think that does need to be a strategy. And so at that level, you know, I mean, so much of how we craft our people's engagement is at the level of the individual line manager, right? I mean, they are the key player in terms of shaping the work that people do every day. They're the kind of central bearer of the relationship with the organization. And so it is, ultimately it comes down to them, but they work within a certain architecture. And so I think for the people at the top probably describable sort of training we want to provide to our managers. It's about what kind of overall strategy we take to our workforce. So, you know, I think one thing that's really important is thinking through that balance, kind of how much you rely on your workforce, devote things to them, how much you kind of try and regulate everything put in place kind of rules and clearly in an environment like credit unions, there are some regulations that are non-negotiable, but kind of setting that tone of trust and partnership rather than kind of engineering and cost minimization, I think is important as well. So there are some basic kind of, you know, strategic decisions around how we manage people that come from a top, that kind of vision, and then how we align people throughout the organization to actually put that into practice.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  15:16

And so are there some things to that the people team, if you will, can do to almost model the behaviors that they want, or the culture that they want in the organization within their own work together? I'm kind of wondering like, as an example, I've been visiting a medical office fairly regularly lately. And every single person on that staff that I've come into contact with seems calm, capable and ready to interact with me. And it's just, it's impressive to me that it's so permeating that organization, and I wonder what it is about the leadership of that group that makes that possible to demonstrate to the customer? Is there something about the way the CEO, the VP of HR and the chief talent officer work together like between them, the three of them, that might help drive the culture home throughout the organization?

 

Matthew Bidwell  16:05

That's a great point. I mean, maybe between the three of them, but I think also in their interactions, like you say, with other people. So partly, this is modeling behavior. How do we treat people in this organization? How do we behave? What do we emphasize? A lot of it is also in how they reward other people, and even what they what they pay attention to. So how much attention is really paid to how people are developed throughout the organization? When the CEO is reviewing people at the next level, are they just looking at results? Are they looking at how they manage their people, how they treat their people, the extent to which they're doing a good job in developing them, and so on. So yes, I think the behaviors people model matters, I think also the behaviors that get rewarded. And so really demonstrating that we take talent very seriously in this organization and you're going to get rewarded partly on the results, but partly also on how you manage talent, that sends a very strong message.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  17:00

That's so interesting. Now, you've already mentioned a couple times that micromanaging is something to stay away from if you're trying to promote engagement. Are there some other things, actions or ways of thinking that you think the people in charge of talent in an organization should to try to avoid if they're trying to boost employee engagement?

 

Matthew Bidwell  17:19

That is the really big one. I think, also, when I think about how we manage people, generally, I think there's a big kind of tension between what I think of as kind of an engineering mindset, like, if I can craft these processes perfectly, then people won't need to know what they're doing, or why they're doing it, they will just follow the process. And we will get perfect outcomes, right. And so there's a lot to be said for getting your processes right. When you think about kind of high quality and all those sorts of things,a lot of them come from having very clear processes. But sometimes it's easy at the top to kind of see this as a big engineering problem and forget there are people involved. And so part of it is, you know, if we're going to be very process-centric, how do we engage people in actually creating these processes rather than having them as something alien that comes from outside that's imposed on people. They can feel very controlling.

 

Matthew Bidwell  18:09

Alongside that another thing that you see in a lot of sectors is, on the one hand, people are our most important asset, on the other hand, they're our most important cost. And so there's a trade-off between how much are we emphasizing creating value? How much are we emphasizing building the motivation and engagement of our people? How much are we emphasizing building their skills, kind of creating more value versus how much are we emphasizing cost minimization? So kind of reducing how much cost we spend on that.

 

Matthew Bidwell  18:37

You see in other sectors, this big gaps between some organizations that say, we'll make the most profit by driving our payroll costs down the furthest, in terms of how we schedule people, in terms of how much we pay them, and so on. And other organizations that say, we're going to pay more, and we're going to expect more of our people in return. I tend to think that latter strategy tends to drive much higher engagement. So some of those kinds of I think big decisions about just how do we think about where the value of our workforce comes from? Is it through kind of doing the most that we can as cheaply as possible? Or is it about engaging them as genuine partners? I think that also really shapes the environment.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  19:16

This has been wonderful. I want to turn the tables around a little bit and ask you, what would you say that CEOs and chief talent officers and VPs of HR, what can they do to promote their own engagement?

 

Matthew Bidwell  19:28

Oh, that's another interesting question. I mean, we talk sometimes about this idea of job crafting, which is this idea that in all of our jobs, we have some opportunity to shape it ourselves to figure out how I'm going to carry out my responsibilities, which tasks I'm going to emphasize maybe where I'm going to spend a little less stuff. I was worried a bit with the job crafting, it can be a kind of way to get the managers off the hook, right? So if your people are miserable, they're just not crafting their jobs properly. It's really on them to figure out how to make the work so engaging, clearly isn't because we have huge responsibility for the engagement of the people below us.

 

Matthew Bidwell  20:03

But yes, for our own engagement, that's where kind of how we think about job crafting comes in. And so, you know, I think, for all of us, particularly those of us have kind of a little more control over our work and kind of more varied work. There are some things every week that we look forward to. And there are some things every week that we really don't look forward to, there are some bits of our work that we just enjoy in the moment. So it's just this is fun, I almost find this kind of work relaxing, because it's really engaging. There are other pieces that may be we find really hard, but we get to the end of the day, and we've completed it, we feel a sense of achievement, I do think it's valuable just to look at your week and kind of understand which is which: which are the pieces which are really energizing me, let's find ways to focus on them, which are the pieces that are bringing me down.

 

Matthew Bidwell  20:59

Some of them were just going to have to do, but other ways to maybe push some of that off onto other people other ways to lessen the burden there. So I think kind of being a little bit in touch with our own emotions in terms of the work that we're doing, and seeing can we, can we organize our work a little bit so that we can really spend a little more time really focused on the pieces that energize us where we we get a sense of either engagement or achievement, I think that's something it's worth all of us spending time doing.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  21:25

I love that idea of looking forward at the week and saying, which pieces really get me going and which pieces slow me down and then managing that, in whatever way makes sense and is possible.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  21:37

This has been a great conversation. And before we sign off, I just want to ask you if there is anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like our listeners to know about engagement?

 

Matthew Bidwell  21:46

I don't think so. I think we've kind of covered quite you know, he's been a rapid traverse of the terrain, but I think we've kind of covered a reasonable amount.

 

Matthew Bidwell  21:54

Thank you. It's been really great. I really appreciate you being on the CUES Podcast today.

 

Matthew Bidwell  21:59

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  22:02

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to today's episode of the CUES Podcast. And many thanks to Matthew Bidwell for sharing such great perspective on employee engagement.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  22:13

As I've already mentioned, Bidwell will be speaking at TalentNEXT, coming up in May in Austin, Texas. You can get all the details about the event at cues.org/talentnext.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  22:24

To read the show notes for this podcast and get a full transcript, please visit CUmanagement.com/podcast 129. You can also find additional credit union-specific content on CUmanagement.com.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  22:40

To sponsor this podcast, please email weston@cues.org. That's w e s t o n@cues.org.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  22:50

If you're a CUES member, you have access to invaluable membership benefits to further enhance your development, many of which are available virtually. Make sure to visit cues.org/membership to learn more.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  23:03

Thanks again for listening today.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  23:05

CUES is an international credit union association. Our mission is to educate and develop credit union CEOs, executives, directors and future leaders.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  23:15

To learn how CUES can help you realize your potential visit cues.org today.

 

Transcript CUES Podcast 128 Zogo Bolun Li

February 2022

By Bolun Li

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:05

You're listening to the CUES Podcast, episode 128.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:10

Thank you for tuning in. As you know, on the CUES Podcast you can hear from a wide range of cross-industry experts discussing trends and topics relevant to you.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:20

My name is Lisa Hochgraf, and I'm senior cditor for CUES and our Credit Union Management magazine. I'm very excited to be your host for this show.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:28

Today we're going to get an update from Bolun Li, CEO of Zoho, the sponsor of this show. Bolun was our guest almost exactly a year ago in Episode 110, which you can find at CUmanagement.com/podcast110.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:44

In this show, Bolun gives us an update about the Zogo financial education app. And he has a lot of growth to describe. Plus, as a member of Gen Z himself and CEO of a company that helps credit unions connect with members of this generation, Bolun also provides great insights into how credit unions can better connect with Gen Zers.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:05

There's great news here. Bolun thinks Gen Z and credit unions can grow together. And he offers some pretty practical and down-to-earth things you can do to play your part in making this happen.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:16

So let's get started.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:21

Welcome back to the CUES Podcast Bolun.

 

Bolun Li  01:24

Hey, thanks for having me back.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:26

So I looked it up and you were actually last on the show almost exactly a year ago. Listeners, you can listen to that podcast that Bolun and I did last year at CU management.com/podcast 110.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:40

So to get us started today, Bolun, and would you briefly explain what Zoho is and what it does?

 

Bolun Li  01:46

Sure. Yeah, so Zogo is the gamified financial literacy app that have now actually have over 450 bite-sized modules. I think last year, when we did the podcast, we had 300.  So it has 450 bite-sized financial education lessons targeting Gen Z, just my generation. And the users, when they complete these bite-sized modules, they will earn a currency in the app called pineapples. And then they can redeem their pineapples for rewards like gift cards, and charities, all that kind of stuff. Also available on App Store Android. So if you want to check it out, you can go on the store and just search Zogo and try it out yourself.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  02:24

So tell me about how credit unions have connected with you on this. Last time we talked there were about 75 credit union clients, but I bet it's grown just like the bite-sized modules.

 

Bolun Li  02:33

Lots of great changes. That's wonderful. Are there any other newsy items that you want to bring out in the show?

 

Bolun Li  02:33

Yeah, yeah, it definitely has. Yeah, we're at 180, mostly actually credit union customers, we have a few kind of bank partners, but mostly credit union customers. And we kind of gone into the credit space, really, I would say accidentally. I was at a conference called NACUSO, way back in the day, three  years ago, and presented the idea and you know, kind of got on our first 10 launch partners to use Zogo as the new way of delivering financial education, especially to the younger generations. And from there, you know, we kind of just continue to grow, continue to find out new ways to work with credit unions. So today, obviously, we have credit unions that are using the logo app in their branches, in classrooms. We also have credit unions who actually integrate Zogo's gamified education into their own mobile banking app. So definitely the way we've been working with credit unions has has expanded as well, over the years.

 

Bolun Li  03:20

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest one really is the integration into the mobile banking app. We've just recently launched with one of our biggest customers called Visions Credit Union, and they've seen incredible feedbacks and user growth just through the like adoptions on their mobile platforms, where users can, you know, really get paid to learn about financial literacy. And we're seeing that, you know, it's not just something only for the younger people, but it's for all age groups. So super excited about that. And we're getting integrated with a lot of the mobile banking providers, which is exciting: Q2, NCR, Bennos, so on and so forth. So I think, lots of exciting stuff to come this year.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  04:23

That's very exciting. It sounds like you've expanded your business model in a variety of ways. And I can personally attest to the idea that it is not just for the youngest of people. Last year, I played with it a lot and I was telling Bolun before the show, I finally had to, like, restrict my access to Zogo because I was spending so much time with it in the evening. And yeah, it was really great. It was really great.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  04:44

Besides launching this cool app to help credit unions connect with members of Gen Z, you are a member of this generation, right? So you know a lot about Gen Z, and I think Gen Z is something credit unions would like to understand better so they can better serve them. So can we talk about Gen Z a little bit?

 

Bolun Li  04:59

Sure. Yeah, yeah, no, I think Gen Z is a really unique, you know, group of people. And I've been kind of saying this a lot, too, I think Gen Z is actually the perfect members for credit unions just because the values are so aligned between Gen Z and credit unions. Gen Z value, you know, companies that have social responsibilities. They really value companies that have great customer support and member support, I guess, in this case, and, you know, in general, they just want things that are more modern, and also just more easy to access and community-focused. So I think, you know, I've been saying this already for a while now that Gen Z is the perfect audience for credit unions. But the biggest challenge right now is that most of the Gen Z have no idea what credit union even is. We did a survey back in the day on college campuses, that 76% of students we did at Duke University, have no idea what a credit union is. So before anything else, like that's the first thing we need to address? Yeah.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  06:01

Yeah, get the message out bbout what the heck credit union means. I think it's a confusing term for a lot of people. Yeah, so

 

Bolun Li  06:08

Exactly. And, you know, even when we start working with credit unions, and we have a few couple, you know, community banks, we can clearly see that, like, credit unions are a lot more innovative, like, it's like a lot more modern, the way they're thinking about things, you know, I really think that this is going to be the generation where credit unions can really take off. And that's, you know, so goes trying to help, obviously, by educating young people, I think there's many ways to do that, for sure.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  06:33

So when you talk about Gen Z, how do you define it. Sometimes when I look into the generations, I find that different groups define the generations differently. When were they born? How old are the members of Gen Z today?

 

Bolun Li  06:44

The way we define it, it's, although it's 13, to 25, once again, it doesn't really, really matter, you know, it could be a little bit murky here and there. But it's really this generation that's like, digital-first. We grew up with our phone. And we are just, you know, super used to doing everything on our phone, you know, also growing through this financial crisis, right? 2008 and stuff in just under having that understanding and being more cautious with our finance and wanting to learn more about financial literacy, you know, those are some of the characteristics of Gen Z.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  07:18

So I loved what you said about Gen Z being the generation that credit unions will be able to grow with. Would you say more about that? What do you mean by growing with them? And, you also said, there's more than one way to do it, like. Zogo is a great way to do it. But what are some other ways you're thinking about?

 

Bolun Li  07:33

Yeah, I think, you know, Gen Z is just into the workforce, right? The older side of Gen Z, like my side of Gen Z, on the older side of Gen Z.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  07:42

I'm smiling over here.

 

Bolun Li  07:47

It's just starting to get into the workforce. So it's, it's a great opportunity, I think, for credit unions to become top of mind for them. And, you know, obviously, Zogo is trying to help credit unions with attracting Gen Z through educations a very low-touch models. But there are a lot of other tools out there where parents giving their kids the first checking account, I would say, like that's the best opportunity for credit unions to come in, and then be that provider for the first account for the children. And, you know, also, I think there's a lot of college campuses, events and branches, activities that are near college campuses,. You oftentimes, like even when I went to college, the only thing you see really is banks, after banks after banks having advertisement, but I think that is like a perfect place for credit unions to really figure out a strategy and execute and trying to get these Gen Z who's about to go into the workforce, to be familiar with credit unions to be willing to kind of take that path versus a traditional bank.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  08:48

Right. So you're saying talk to parents, and be on the college campus where young people are. And those are great bits of advice. I love it. So I have a question that stems from personal experience. And that is, I'm the parent to someone that's a member of Gen Z, and he is now in college, and I tried to help him get a credit card, and I thought I was gonna have to like, twist his arm off to get him to do it because he was so averse to the idea of any credit at all. And I said, you know, you can pay it at the end of every month. But then later, when you want to take a mortgage, you'll have a better history of paying so that you have a credit history that you can use to do bigger things. Finally, that's what got him. But what advice do you have to work with that aspect of Gen Z?

 

Bolun Li  09:36

Reluctant this of using financial products?

 

Lisa Hochgraf  09:39

Yeah, not interested in credit, no debt of any kind for any length of time.

 

Bolun Li  09:43

Yeah, well, I can actually, you know, its depends on the Gen Z, right. You know, it's actually really funny. We have, like I said, we have 450 modules on the app. One of the most popular topics for Gen Z is "get credit" on the app. And it's actually talking about how you can get credit. And he actually talks about the things you just mentioned. Right about, like, you know, you can collect your credit score this way. But really, what I think the the thing that's happening is like, a lot of the time, parents are not having that conversation with the kids at home. My parents certainly didn't have that conversations. And then, you know, the kids have to kind of piece together information here and there. And that's why, you know, at Zogo, we want to make it, put it together, make it into a way that's digestible. I don't necessarily think Gen Z are afraid of taking out credit or taking out loans. I think it's just they don't really understand it right, just kind of what she said, once you explain it to her son, he's much more willing to do it.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  10:41

Yeah, I like your reframing that it's not so much fear as perhaps the lack of information or a lack of information from a source they trust, because sometimes it's better to get it from the Zogo game app than your mom. So, but parents can also be very valuable, right? Because I did eventually find what it was that motivated him. And I think he's doing well with the whole thing now.

 

Bolun Li  11:01

Right? Yeah, exactly.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  11:04

So Bolden, you've really done a neat thing here with launching the app and growing the app and growing the business model. And also, I've seen you around the industry a lot talking about Gen Z, and I appreciate your insights into Gen Z today. Tell me a little bit more about what's next for Zogo. What do you see on the horizon?

 

Bolun Li  11:23

You know, two years ago, when we launched Zogo, I never thought this is where we're gonna be in two years like that the growth has just completely shocked me to be honest. Today, we have over half a million users now, on the app tech.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  11:37

Wow

 

Bolun Li  11:37

Completed over 15 million, 15 million educational lessons on financial literacy.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  11:43

That is striking. 15 million educational lessons. Wow.

 

Bolun Li  11:47

Yeah, 15 million. And you know, it's just only it's only growing every single day. Every day, we get thousands and thousands of new users joining the Zogo family. But you know, what, what we've realized is that the model that we've built of teaching people some some things in a very bite-sized ways, and then rewarding them with some kind of token and some kind of rewards. It's really a model that's working, especially for the younger generations. So the next step for us is to make both pieces this learn and earn like both learn and both and earn pieces more even more robust. One of the super exciting things we're doing this year is we're adding crypto rewards into the app. So users, once they complete their module, they earn the pineapple, they can not only redeem it for gift card, but they can actually redeem it for for cryptocurrency that will sit in the wallet inside the app that they can see using this micro learning, I guess, that they made from the app to learn about cryptocurrency and some of these other more newer way of, I guess, newer finance, next generation of financial literacy. And we're super excited about that.

 

Bolun Li  12:58

And obviously, on the learning side, we're adding, like constantly adding new modules. We're adding a new badging system inside the app where users can start earning the certificate and earning these badges that will be verified by the financial institutions that they can add on to the resume, to their LinkedIn profile, to really wherever so to show that they are making progress and ready for their adult life. So these are just a few things that we're working on. But in general, the idea is to continue to enhance these two parts that we have created and connected together, learn and earn, and try to get to millions and millions of people by the end of the year.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  13:38

Impressive. I'm kind of curious about the cryptocurrency piece, not being very expert in using it myself. Once you've collected enough cryptocurrency in the Zogo app, What would someone do with it? How do you spend it?

 

Bolun Li  13:51

Yeah, they could, you know, transfer it to another wallet of theirs where they can redeem it for US dollars. They want to do that. It's just like, you know, any of the other crypto wallet, but it is something that we've found really appealing to younger people. And it's something that, you know, will keep them engaged and keep them trying to do more educational lessons.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  14:13

So interesting. It's a, it's a great mission to use the incentives, to use the games to use the reward, to help Gen Z learn and others like me last year on the app. I, I had a great time learning with it. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

 

Bolun Li  14:26

Of course, of course always great to be back. And you know, hopefully we do this every year. Make it into a series. That'll be fun.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  14:35

I would welcome that Bolun. Thanks so much for your time today.

 

14:38

Great. Thank you so much.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  14:41

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to today's episode of the CUES Podcast, and many thanks to Bolun Li for sharing such great insight into Gen Z.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  14:51

Find show otes and a full transcript for today's show at CUmanagement.com/podcast 128. Also At CUmanagement.com, you can find a great deal of credit union-specific content about a wide range of topics. I hope you'll check it out.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  15:09

If you're a CUES member, you have access to invaluable membership benefits to further enhance your development. Many membership benefits are available virtually. Make sure to visit cues.org/membership to learn more.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  15:23

Thanks again for listening today.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  15:25

CUES is an international credit union association. Our mission is to educate and develop credit union CEOs, executives, directors and future leaders. To learn how CUES can help you realize your potential visit cues.org today.

 

CUES Podcast 127: Andrea Brown Kimberly Wright Black Female Leaders

February 2022

By Kimberly Wright and Andrea Brown

Tony Covington  00:04

You're listening to the CUES Podcast episode 127.

 

Tony Covington  00:08

Thank you CUES podcast listeners for tuning in to the CUES podcast. As you know, on the CUES Podcast, you can hear from a wide range of cross-industry experts discussing trends and topics relevant to you.

 

Tony Covington  00:20

My name is Tony Covington. I'm the Vice President of Business Development for TalentED, powered by CUES. I'm also a former NFL player and have over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit sector with several national brands. I am very excited to be your host for this show.

 

Tony Covington  00:36

At CUES, we're celebrating Black History Month by talking with African American leaders about their past and leadership as well as how best to develop emerging Black leaders. Today we're going to focus on the specific case of Black female leaders. And I know you're going to really enjoy hearing from our guests, Kimberly Wright and Andrea Brown.

 

Tony Covington  00:56

Kimberly is the senior vice president and executive director of the American Heart Association based in Atlanta, Georgia. In this episode, she provides a wealth of information about her own experience in rising to the C-suite, plus tips for women of color who aspire to top leadership roles in their organizations.

 

Tony Covington  01:13

Andrea is the executive director of the Black Mental Health Alliance for Education and Consultation based in Baltimore, Maryland. Andrea lends to the show her incredibly positive energy and provides insight about what it means to be a female leader of color today.

 

Tony Covington  01:31

Both Kimberly and Andrea bring their expertise in the nonprofit sector to the advisory council for TalentED, powered by CUES. TalentED works with the nonprofits to develop their executive teams, board members and staff to reach the highest levels of their potential.

 

Tony Covington  01:47

So let's get started.

 

Tony Covington  01:50

Welcome to the show, Andrea and Kimberly,

 

Andrea Brown  01:53

Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

 

Kimberly Wright  01:56

Thanks for having us.

 

Tony Covington  01:57

Absolutely. Here at CUES, we want to celebrate Black History Month by identifying top African American leaders and learning from them. You both definitely qualify for that. So I'd like to help our guests get to know you both. Before we get into talking about your path to leadership as accomplished black women, I was wondering if you might each have a professional quote or mantra that you live by that you could share. Andrea, you first.

 

Andrea Brown  02:23

So it's funny. And they've changed over the years. So one of the things that it used to be is "grind now, shine later." But I know I'm not a machine. So some of what I say every day is always find my voice. Always find my passion. Never miss my purpose.

 

Tony Covington  02:39

Hmm. Dropping mics and things. Kimberly, how about you?

 

Kimberly Wright  02:44

That is a hard one to follow. But I have to say that mine through the years has been "behave as if." I mean, yes, save as if you are that next level.

 

Andrea Brown  02:58

Love it.

 

Tony Covington  02:59

Wow. That's awesome.

 

Andrea Brown  03:00

Love it. Love it.

 

Tony Covington  03:02

Let's continue to help listeners understand your experiences as Black women who have grown into top leadership positions. Kimberly, would you describe your journey to the C-suite and what were one or two keys that helped you to get there.

 

Kimberly Wright  03:15

So I will spare you the past 30-plus years and keep it short. But over the last 20 years or so I've been in the nonprofit space starting with the American Cancer Society, director of operations there. Then I took a short stint, went over to Pitney Bowes and sharpened my development, my sales and business development skills. Then I ended up back in nonprofit at the American Heart Association, serving as the vice president of community in Atlanta, and most recently serving as senior vice president within the region, within the southeast region, and executive director for the Metro Atlanta market.

 

Kimberly Wright  03:57

A couple of key things that has helped me to get there. I would say No. 1, my mantra, "behaving as if," keeping that in mind along the way. So if I was at a director level, and the next step was VP, I behaved as if I was a VP, so that I look the part and behave the part. But behaving also required learning and development, studying.

 

Kimberly Wright  04:22

The other part is expanding my network or group of people that are around me that are different from me, because that helps to broaden my perspective. I forced myself to get uncomfortable, so that ultimately I could be comfortable in different environments and leading different people.

 

Tony Covington  04:40

That is awesome. That is awesome. Andrea, what about your journey to the C-suite and what were one or two key factors to help you?

 

Andrea Brown  04:47

So it's funny as I was listening to Kimberly, it's it's so interesting how sometimes there's such alignment in this space for women of color, right? And so while the journeys are different, there are some similarities and so I spent and again, I won't bore you with the details, but I spent a little over 17 and a half years at the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People at the executive level. And what I found to be probably most interesting is remembering my voice. And we'll probably talk about this a little bit later, but remembering my voice and claiming my space, that was really important to me, and I wasn't going to let folk take that from me. And, you know, one of the probably the best things that I learned about the NAACP at that level that, you know, we often see, it's male dominated. So it was, I had to be real clear, and I had to be real good.

 

Andrea Brown  05:38

So again, you know, remembering my voice, remembering my purpose. And, you know, one of the things that Kimberly said, it just so resonated with me, you know, I'm a lifelong learner. And so if I didn't know, you know, I take a class. If I wasn't sure, I'd find a certificate program. And I think, you know, lastly, for me is mentorship. And so even folk who, you know, maybe I was bothersome, a little bit younger than they wanted me to be. But I forced myself in spaces because there was gifts that I had to sit at the feet of people to learn, and I was not moving until I got it.

 

Tony Covington  06:15

Wow, two powerful women and the explanations are amazing. And, Andrea, you and I have that experience at the NAACP. And I thank you for kind of putting me up on game when I got there. And it was extremely helpful that I looked at you as a mentor and leader that I could know that I could bend your ear and have conversations because you had had the experience, you know, you've been through the wars. And so I was always really appreciative for for your guidance and helping me during my time there.

 

Andrea Brown  06:47

Thank you so much. I mean, we owe it right, and that we can have that conversation later. I mean, it's it's not even, I couldn't have said no, right, even if you said it, and I said oh, beat it. No, that's that's not an option. It really was not, you had to be successful in this space. Because I was there a little bit longer earlier, then it was my responsibility, and especially for women. But so thank you, thank you for being for being open and being a sponge.

 

Tony Covington  07:15

Absolutely, absolutely. Why would each of you say that we don't see more women in top leadership roles, more specifically, more African American women in top leadership roles? What do you think Kimberly?

 

Kimberly Wright  07:27

Well, you know, I don't think we can ignore structural racism and sexism that exists. So that's double whammy that we have going in. Things are better. And you do see more African American women in leadership, but not as many as there should be. And honestly, I would say those are the two main factors. So it's hard to advance when the system needs some adjustment and correcting to be open to developing women of color into leadership positions, making space for us, and recognizing the nuances and the differences that exist when we are in leadership.

 

Tony Covington  08:12

Excellent. What about you, Andrea?

 

Andrea Brown  08:14

You know, she talked about racism and sexism, and that, honestly, that they like the twins, right? And so there has been progress, but not nearly enough. And I have to be honest, this journey is a tough one. And so some of what you see is once those kinds of things are encountered, and you ask yourself in this moment in history, where there's 2020, 2021, are we still having these kinds of conversations and behaviors? And so because of that, folks say, "You know what, I can do something else." And the truth of the matter is, they're called to do what they're called to do. But that's the biggie, that is, and if I might add, you know, when we start to talk about systemic racism in these spaces, right, um, that's trauma, because, you know, oftentimes when we don't get to move, like we need to, you know, that pattern is repeated and so nobody gets to break the cycle because they're like, it's the old boys network, you're not gonna be able to do it. That's it in a nutshell: sexism and racism.

 

Kimberly Wright  09:13

And you know, I add something else, you know, we have the the system itself, but it's not necessarily an attractive position to be in at all times. It's hard. Balancing being a mother, a caregiver, a daughter, all the things that come along with it, on top of being an African American female leader. So there's one of when we're assertive, we're called a female dog. And then on the other hand, being the angry African American, once again, that double whammy. So, switching back and forth and balancing assertive with confidence and making sure that those around us that we're leading and leading with don't misinterpret it, and then having to come home and take off that hat of leadership, assertiveness, trying to balance and compartmentalize and then come home and transition into the other job. It's a lot. So I would also say that sometimes it's not all roses and a comfortable place to be, and it's uncomfortable.

 

Tony Covington  10:22

Yeah

 

Andrea Brown  10:22

You know, Kimberly, I'm sorry, Tony, I was just gonna say I'm so glad you raised that. Because again, I think that's so critical. It is uncomfortable, and it's exhausting. And if you don't have the balance, you can forget it. And even when you do those things, and you you call it caregiver, wife, mother, all of that, all of those, and then we still have to show up and play full out. It's difficult. So thank you, thank you, thank you for raising that. Because we've talked earlier about our own stories and the things that we do on a day-to-day basis. And so I think that's important to raise.

 

Tony Covington  10:58

Yeah, say so it seems critical that the work-life balance is in place because of the traumas that you have to deal with on a consistent daily basis at work. Things at home, things may not be going correctly, but you have to have that balance, or you will fail. And you two have seemed to master or are in the process of mastering that work-life balance. So kudos to you both. How do you both feel about being in leadership today? Well, I know there are a ton of ways to respond to this. Do you feel that there is an even playing field once you reach the top? Andrea, you first.

 

Andrea Brown  11:42

Not only is it not an even playing field, you know, again, we talk about and I think I've said this, and I'm happy to, for us to talk about it at another time, but some of what we see is too male and too stale, right? Whether that's on our boards, whether that's in our board rooms, whether that's in our cubicles, some of what we see and so no, the playing field has not been leveled and the other challenges, oftentimes, we have to be twice as good. Three times as good. We've got to be as established, if not more. And so no, I think this new sort of surge of Black female leadership really will lend itself to really opening more doors, right. So I mean, that there have been doors that have been open, but not nearly enough. My one word answer, absolutely not. Well, that's two words, but absolutely not.

 

Tony Covington  12:34

What about you, Kimberly?

 

Kimberly Wright  12:36

Oh, I agree. It's not an even playing field. And we can also talk about the flip side of the coin, that right now, there's opportunity, but it's not an even playing field. And based on the current climate, we are also called upon to, as the representative for all things diversity, equity and inclusion, so we're called upon to sit at the board table to diversify a community board. So because there are so few of us, we're being stretched. And then when we're at the table, it's not an even playing field. We still have to show up three times as sharp.

 

Tony Covington  13:21

Hmm. Do you, do you feel that you have broken through or at least cracked the glass ceiling?

 

Kimberly Wright  13:29

I feel like I have busted through the glass ceiling in my current position. And I will say that I have opened it up for others. Now, whether or not they patch up the ceiling again afterwards? I don't know. They might. They may not like my style of kicking through or busting through the glass ceiling. But I think I have. Hopefully, it stays open.

 

Tony Covington  13:55

Great. Andrea, what about you?

 

Andrea Brown  13:56

I think the same. I think the same. I'll be honest, though, I worry. I worry about, you know, as I transition out of whatever my space is, whether that's the ED or whatever, I worry that folk are afraid because it is hard, right? I worry that folk are afraid. And I think Kimberly said that they may patch it up. And I think it's easier, right? Because that's the easy way to say you know what? The hell with it, I can do something else. But the truth of the matter is, it's really not optional, but yes, absolutely. But I worry quite a bit. You know, I think about my nieces and you know, other young people and younger people. And I'm like, I just don't know if they are willing to make the sacrifice because it is a real sacrifice to do this and to keep it open for others.

 

Tony Covington  14:46

Right. Do you both feel that this so-called Great Resignation is impacting Black women at the highest levels of leadership?

 

Kimberly Wright  14:53

I would say it is and in a positive way, because going back to the point that there's not many of us in these positions, poaching is happening. So there you know you have an organization looking for that same talent, a talent that has vetted and have watched them perform in another organization. So it's safe, like this is a safe, Black woman that I can bring over to my organization, if we're having a real conversation here, right. And so there's great opportunity for us now. But I, back to what Andrea was saying, I just hope that I don't end up being the token and this isn't a fad or a phase.

 

Andrea Brown  15:41

Let me just say this to you. You, you, my friend are all over it. So I agree, great opportunity. All of that. I think it feels like right. It's the new sexy thing. And, you know, so we move from token, but it's the new sexy thing. Let's have one at our table, right? Let's have one here. But what happened in spaces like that, if we're not careful, it doesn't lend itself to real voice for us, right? And it doesn't lend itself to the opportunity in a real way in numbers to be able to speak truth to power. So yes, definitely, it is an opportunity. But it's all in a risky space, because we got to be strategic about how we move in this space. Got to be strategic. Willie cannot blow this. Because if we do, then, you know, it's the new sexy thing or the, you know, the token. So yeah.

 

Kimberly Wright  16:36

And we could spend another two hours talking about that strategy.

 

Andrea Brown  16:41

I'm telling you. I think they have to have us back for that strategy. The truth of the matter is, there is a blueprint that we could make sure that women have right at Black women have so that this conversation would look so different in a year. But it is this strategy, but I think they're gonna have us back. That's how dope we are.

 

Kimberly Wright  17:03

No doubt, no doubt.

 

Tony Covington  17:06

You guys kind of touched on this a little bit earlier. But I want to get into it a little bit more, I think Andrea referenced too male and too stale, but can you speak to the diversity or lack thereof as it relates to the boards of directors that you've worked on during your careers?

 

Andrea Brown  17:22

So it's funny. So I will say two things. So I sit on an amazing board now, right? It's a board, relatively large board, not as large as the one that I'm really familiar with. And there are two of us that are Black. One is an amazing man and smart. And one is an amazing black woman, right? And some of the conversation, and now I'm in this leadership role. So I'm vice chair, so it could very well be and I'm sure their heads will spin, in two years, I could be the chair of this small board run by historically white Jewish people, right? It could be. I know, they're not ready. And I'm doing my best to get them ready, because I plan on not going anywhere. But I say all of that to say it's still not enough, right? And so I'm asked to, I think both of us are asked, you know, we become the default about diversity, right? So I'm like, "No, that's not the conversation, I'm gonna have. You, bring some more folk on board." And we do that. So you got that, you know, so I serve in that capacity. And then there are others where it is white male-run. And so you know, there are times and I've said, I'm not going to fight for my voice, you're going to hear me and I'm not moving. But you know, one of the things that I learned in a hard way from the NAACP, that was 64 members of the board, that's insane to me, right, but 64 members, ridiculously political. So you need to learn how to be able to play chess, right? So you got to be a master thinker, master strategist. I think that I try to remember as much as I can not to say no to another board opportunity without stretching myself too thin, because I think it's important. They need to see us, but more importantly, they need to hear me. And if you're looking for the regular script, you're not going to get that from me. So you know, I don't know if that totally answered your question. But I think, you know, we got to shake things up because again, on many levels too male, too stale, whether that's black, Jewish, white, whatever that is, right. But I think as we make our way in this space, and it's certainly everybody's voice is valued. But you know, one of the things that I hear often and I promise I'll keep quiet after this is "Well, that's not the way we used to do it." Well, you were not there. That was yesterday. Today is a new day. So. Interesting.

 

Tony Covington  19:45

Outstanding. Kimberly?

 

Kimberly Wright  19:47

Of course I agree with everything that she said. I will also say that it's not diverse enough, and then when we do get a seat at the table, so if I'm the only one there I have to be strategic and how I show up so as not to cause them to patch up that hole in the ceiling. So it also in terms of how we serve on the boards, and how we show up depends on the maturity level, the diversity maturity level, that's a new thing I just made up, of a given board organization. Now, I think it would be smart for corporations, nonprofits, you name it, to invest in board leadership training for women of color in the organization because when we're sitting on the board, we're representing the organization that we either work for, run, etc. So in terms of a succession planning, there is an opportunity for us to ensure that there is a succession plan in place of experienced and ready leaders to sit at the board table.

 

Tony Covington  21:01

Phenomenal. And in, you know, what you both are really talking about as well is a diversity in thought. If the, if the, if you walk into the room, a board room, and it's just stale and male, as Andrea put it, there is no diversity of thought. Everybody thinks the same way. And that's the strength of why you diversify a room that looks you know, multicultural, multilanguage, multieverything. It needs to be a diversity in thought. So kudos to you both for really, really identifying what that is. So this has been really fascinating perspective of the state of things during your rise to leadership, and your years as leaders. What do you see as next steps? And how can pathways be created for the next generation of women of color that aspire to lead? I know, Andrea, you talked a little bit about the blueprint. But what is that?

 

Andrea Brown  21:54

So I think that's a couple of things. Right? I think that is us, you know, Kimberly and I, that is really putting together a pipeline like there are some programs called Brown Girls Lead. What does that look like? So I think, not just programs, but I think we got to be intentional with recruiting women. I think we have a responsibility to serve as mentors. So I think that's one of the things. And quite frankly, I love to figure out a think tank, right, like to put together a think tank. So for the next five years, all we do in this space, is figure out how to have this pipeline of eager, talented, brilliant women come through so that we don't have to have this conversation, right, so that we create another dynamic workforce of leaders. So I think that that's, you know, I think some of it is the book that's in my belly, right? Probably the one that's in Kimberly's belly. And but again, it's programs like Brown Girls Lead, you know, it's programs that are specific, but we got to move with intentionality. And we got to be quick.

 

Kimberly Wright  22:58

Yes, agree. And I think that we have, we need a strong pipeline and quality training for the pipeline, so that they are prepared to step in and lead with excellence. Because again, the training needs to be geared towards women of color, knowing that you need to show up three times as magnificent. So we need the training to be on how to show up three times as magnificent. I know I'm making up phrases left and right here, but here we go.

 

Tony Covington  23:34

I love it. I love it. That's amazing.

 

Andrea Brown  23:36

So one of the things that Kimberly talked about, you know, this pipeline, right, which I love, and I think in the pipeline, and we obviously we don't have time to do the details. But I think there has to be a cohort of coaches, right? Coaches for Black women, so we cannot fail. So when you walk in the door, wherever this whatever this looks like, right? Whatever this training looks like, you got a coach, and whether she's in Arkansas, whether she is wherever she is, you have a coach. She has access to you because that is obviously high-level mentorship, but you've got to have a coach. I don't, you can't do it. And then coach says, Put me in, I'm ready to play.

 

Kimberly Wright  24:18

Right. And you know, what the coach can do also, which we often need and is a big part of coaching, when you're about to walk into that too male or stale boardroom is for that coach to tie your super cape on to tell you that you are worthy of sitting at that table.

 

Andrea Brown  24:36

That's right. That's right.

 

Kimberly Wright  24:37

Go girl!

 

Andrea Brown  24:37

That's right.

 

Kimberly Wright  24:38

I mean truly, and I will tell you in my role today, there are Black women on my team, and before they are prepared to present, I put "prep time" air quotes on their calendar. I ask them to identify their superpower song and I need you to blast it. I speak life into them, affirmations. You've got it, hang up the phone and they go. But we also need that support system that comes along from that coach and the cheerleader to say, "You are worthy. You deserve to be there at that table."

 

Tony Covington  25:13

Mm hmm.

 

Andrea Brown  25:15

Hey, Kimberly, last thing, I think along with that, then we also get the opportunity to debrief, right? So we can say, here's some things that I recognize that could be a pitfall for you, right? And that's something at the board room, but something in you what an awesome opportunity we could be given to really help shape and mold this next generation of leaders

 

Kimberly Wright  25:37

That addresses the trauma and prevents the trauma because what do we do? We step away from the boardroom and we wonder what if I said too much? I didn't say the right thing. And then we start, what do we do, we start hurting ourselves. So we inflict that trauma on ourselves.

 

Tony Covington  25:54

Hm. As a former athlete, I think about the teams that we were really good, we had really great coaches. He knew how to put us in key positions that were going to set us up to be successful. And so by creating these coaches for this next generation, that's going to be key in helping them to be successful and helping set them up for success. So I am so glad that you guys get it. You guys get it because you've lived it. And so it's wonderful that you have that perspective. I just want to thank you both so much for being here today. But before we get you out of here, we always end with a segment called "message in a bottle." And what that is, what is the message that you would leave to your younger self? Kimberly, you first.

 

Kimberly Wright  26:42

My goodness, I would say my younger, younger self, "Behave as if." I did not adopt that until my 20s. And I would say behave as if, from the age of two. Behave as if my mother could speak life to me in my womb, and say behave as if.

 

Tony Covington  27:09

Wow. Andrea?

 

Andrea Brown  27:11

That's heavy. You know, that's heavy. I think mine would be, you know, you were created to do great things and make impact. And I'd say it over and over, because then I know that my thinking would not be small. And it would obviously flow right into that, you know, Kimberly's mantra of "behave as if." But you you were created to do great things and make impact.

 

Tony Covington  27:36

Wow. Wow, you two are amazing. Absolutely amazing. And I think that this next generation is in good hands when we have women leaders like yourselves. And so please continue to chase greatness. Please continue to teach the ones that will come behind you how to chase greatness. And you start with teaching them they helping them define what their greatness is, and then chasing it with relentless pursuit. So I thank you both so very much for being on this show and continued success to you both.

 

Andrea Brown  28:10

Thank you so much.

 

Andrea Brown  28:11

And Kimberly, you'll hear from me

 

Kimberly Wright  28:11

Thank you.

 

Andrea Brown  28:13

Oh yes, we've got to do that.

 

Andrea Brown  28:13

because I think we got to be onto something.

 

Kimberly Wright  28:15

I think we are.

 

Andrea Brown  28:17

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having us.

 

Tony Covington  28:20

Thank you.

 

Tony Covington  28:23

I would like to thank you, our listeners for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to today's episode of the CUES Podcast, and many thanks to Kimberly Wright and Andrea Brown for sharing such great perspective. You can find the show notes and a full transcript for today's show at CUmanagement.com/podcast127. Anyone who's interested in more content about women in leadership can subscribe to our Advancing Women quarterly newsletter at content.cues.org/subscribe and enroll in our upcoming online course, Women in Leadership Online Certificate Program. Get more information on that at cues.org/cornell.

 

Tony Covington  29:10

If you're a CUES member, you have access to invaluable membership benefits to further enhance your development. Many membership benefits are available virtually. Make sure to visit cues.org/membership to learn more.

 

Tony Covington  29:24

Thanks again for listening today.

 

Tony Covington  29:26

CUES is an international credit union association. Our mission is to educate and develop credit union CEOs, directors and future leaders. To learn how CUES can help you realize your potential, visit cues.org today.

 

 

CUES 126—Building Bold, Effective
Black Leadership at PSCU—an Interview with Marvin York

January 2021

By Marvin York

 

Tony Covington  00:04

You're listening to the CUES Podcast episode 126.  Thank you, CUES Podcast listeners, for tuning in to the CUES Podcast. As you know, on the CUES Podcast, you can hear from a wide range of cross-industry experts discussing trends and topics relevant to you.  My name is Tony Covington, and I'm the Vice President of Business Development for TalentedED, powered by CUES. I'm also a former NFL player for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Seattle Seahawks. I'm pleased to be your host for the show.  At TalentED and CUES, we are marking Black History Month by talking to black leaders about their path to leadership as well as how best to develop tomorrow's black leaders. You're going to really enjoy hearing from today's guest, Marvin York.  Marvin is vice president of customer experience in the call center for CUESolutions provider PSCU, which is based in St. Petersburg, Florida. Marvin was the inspiration behind a recent CUES PSCU partnership for the development of African-American leaders at PSCU that leveraged CUES' talent development expertise and resources.  In this show, you'll hear Marvin talk about how he got the idea that became PSCU Bold, Effective Leadership, a CUES Strategic Leadership Development Program. A dozen PSCU leaders participated in this development opportunity, including Marvin himself. The program included eCornell courses that are part of CUES' talent development offerings, plus the strategic execution course CUES members can access through their Harvard ManageMentor benefit, lots of valuable discussion, and a final presentation.  During this show. Marvin talks about his year long program, and its significant impact plus gives a lot of great perspective on the importance of supporting and developing emerging black leaders.  So without further ado, let's get started.  Welcome to the show, Marvin and Happy Black History Month.

 

Marvin York  02:11

Thank you.

 

Tony Covington  02:13

Here at CUES, we want to celebrate Black History Month by identifying top African-American talent in the industry that are change-makers. You, Marvin my friend, are one of those individuals. And I'd like to help our listeners get to know you a little bit before we jump into talking about the PSCU Bold, Effective Leaders Program. To do that, I wanted to ask you if you had a professional mantra or quote that you live by.

 

Marvin York  02:37

Wake up mad every day. Okay, "make a difference."

 

Tony Covington  02:43

Okay. All right, I like it. You got it, you got to give me a little more. Come on. Where did that one come from?

 

Marvin York  02:49

So I say that because I've always been involved with the development of young professionals, making a difference, being able to open doors and pulling somebody else up, giving them the chance to spread their wings. As an African-American, we don't always get those chance, we don't get the opportunities. And so for me to be able to share that with a young person that's coming up, that's got energy, their knowledge, they're on fire, they want to set the world on fire, they don't get the opportunities and when you can see that in them and you can be able to be a stepping stone for them. And for them to come back and tell you later on down the years what you've done for them, it just lights me up. It puts me on fire. So wake up mad every day about making a difference in someone's life.

 

Tony Covington  03:39

I absolutely love it. It's it's it's kind of similar to lifting as we climb, you know. And so I'm all I'm about that life. So that's awesome, Marvin. Look, I am really glad to talk with you about the PSCU Bold, Effective Leaders program, CUES Strategic Leadership Development Program. Would you tell me about the initial idea for the program and the process of bringing it online and your involvement?

 

Marvin York  04:05

What happened, I actually was with my granddaughter at home, watching some videos with her and what came on on the video was some graduations at HBCUs. And I saw all of these professionals getting ready to launch there. And engineers, doctors lawyers ready to set themselves out. And I said, Wow, that is impressive. And what struck me was in this industry and I've been in the banking, the credit union business for a number of years, it was always told to me we just cannot find people of color to be in these leadership roles, in these key positions. And I'm watching this video and I said we got to do better. We do have the talent. And this is where Chuck came and said I'm going to open up the CUES training to everyone. And I said to him, we're gonna build this leadership for African-Americans, I also run the ERG, the African-American employee resources group. And so therefore, that group I lead and engage with, and try to mentor, do some mentoring with. So there were a team of folks that I've already been engaged with that needed opportunities when those arrived. And we want to make sure not only were the VPs trained, but managers were trained and the next one for a manager will be trained. So our future leaders. .Sankofa is the group, which is outlook, which is looking back of our history to move forward. So in that symbol, who take a look at it's a bird with an egg, the egg is on its back. And it's carrying it. So we say nurturing, are you maturing them, to grow? And to blossom?

 

Tony Covington  05:58

Wow. And could you tell us a little bit about Chuck and his role in it?

 

06:03

Chuck came to me a few years back, and asked me to develop the ERG. I had done that at a former company, JP Morgan Chase, and actually a leadership role at Citi Bank. So I told him, I could do it, but it wouldn't be just a figurehead. We had to have make some actions. If I saw something that needed to be done, I needed him to back me and he gave me 100%. Marvin, if there's something that's needed, can you need some support, you have it. The head of training and development, Lynn Heckler, also gave me that same support. So when I want to make an action, when we needed to make a change, if there was something strategic we need to do, this is one of those things, they supported me 100%. With that being said, developing the program, every one in the C-suite had the opportunity to be a part of this program. So seeing that commitment from them, and their vision of building this company, and the strategies that they are implementing, and how did we fit in the 12. There's 12 individuals going through that. And they are across the departments, multi department. Tthe managers of those people actually funded this program. So the commitment was all the way through from the top to their manager. And that's the key, because these 12 figured out how they could fit into that structure of what this C-suite wanted to do, and how to make change in their coming year. So they would never have this opportunity to have a one-on-one conversations with those leaders normally. But in this form, they got to, and so the relationship gets built. They that identity gets formed on who they are, and what they're capable of.

 

Tony Covington  07:51

Wow. I mean, when you have the buy in from your CEO, it makes a major difference. And and kudos to Chuck Fagan, you see the CEO of PSCU for really stepping up and supporting the efforts made it. When you when you have that kind of buy in, you know, it's real, because it's coming from the top. Let's get a little granular. I'm interested to learn more about the specifics of the program. What I mean is, when did it run, and how long?

 

Marvin York  08:19

So it ran for 12 months. There were 12 participants that we selected across the company, different departments across that that funded it from their management team off their budget. So we used eCornell, our, our ... Harvard University, was actually the modules that we actually went on. We used the tools that they actually had there, took that built some models, actually shared it with our management teams, and different departments if they weren't stakeholders. And so it was very informative. Tools were there and accessible, and will be there for us to use in the future. So it was very, very hands on, and the instructors were actually available through the entire course. So we had the instructors courses, some videos that we could actually do at our own leisure in time, some self study, but it was definitely we had a lot of checking in with CUES to make sure that we were able to navigate and use those tools. And so there were several check-in points that we thought were very valuable to make sure we kept the entire team because I have one the project managers, Sheila Porter was actually the gatekeeper for us to make sure that everyone stayed in line, is on task.

 

Tony Covington  09:48

Excellent.

 

Marvin York  09:49

We actually started the course in January of last year, and we will graduate from this January.

 

Tony Covington  09:57

Outstanding. And then how to engage not only with the executives, but with the management team, your department and other departments, how you will engage who are the stakeholders that will be involved? And what value did it bring, and it should line up with at least one of the executives the way that they want to. That is excellent. So what are the program participants saying about the program now?

 

Marvin York  10:24

The relationship-building piece of it was key. These 12 work across different departments in may have never met on a working project together. But now, working together, building relationships, from IT to project management to learning and development to a contact center on process improvement and quality. We had those expertise across the architectural design on learning. They could pick up the phone and talk to each other, give each other advice, mentor each other. And that was paired. With that being said, common goals and alignment started to form. They're more likely to say we're more alike than we are different and then identify how to move collectively on a goal or mission.

 

Tony Covington  11:17

Wow. That's impressive. And that's exactly how it should be. So what are they doing in terms of their leadership now, now that they have the secret sauce? What are they doing in terms of leadership?

 

Marvin York  11:30

So all along during this journey, they've been engagements with their management teams and cross teams. With that being said, they're positioning themselves in a new light. They have used the tools of actually their discussion with their managers to give them insight on where they were, what they were thinking. And now it gives them another platform to say, Okay, I'm thinking this, and I'm thinking I can get to B, but I didn't realize that the budget didn't support that this year. So maybe I need to line that up. I agree with your management. I agree with management. But we can't do that until next year. So instead of being disappointed about not being able to act on what you were acting on, that it didn't, wasn't timing wasn't right. And the fit is there the following year, and just get prepared and prepare your organization to be on board and budget for that next year. So it gives you that type of thought process so you're not discouraged. It wasn't that you weren't a value, your value, but at a certain time that we were able to implement. And that alignment that actually comraderie actually gets built from that piece. The management team know they can count on them, know that thinking about it, and they're running in the direction that I need to run. And I don't have to coach or assign because it's running on its own.

 

Tony Covington  13:01

Wow. So it sounds like it really is a bridge to communication, open lines of communication, effective, comfortable communication, which is important, because sometimes you don't always feel comfortable talking to senior leaders. And so it's great that they now have an understanding that man, you know, we are all in this together. And so that line of communications definitely need to be open. So that's awesome. So you would agree that it had a positive impact then?

 

Marvin York  13:27

Absolutely.

 

Tony Covington  13:29

Excellent. What was the CUES-PSCU partnership like in terms of offering this program, and what were PSCU's specific goals in participating?

 

Marvin York  13:39

Working with CUES was great. It was it was awesome. Because they said, Marvin, what are you trying to build? And so I gave them my ideal of what we were trying to build is making sure that we can act on and make a difference. And several, we have to make a difference. If you continue to do the same old thing, same away, is the sign of insanit if you think there's gonna be something different come out of that. The two of us said, we got to do something different. And can you help me talk about what makes a difference? What can I shed light on to make this union I should say, union and relationship? Right, because you got employees that want to shine, they want to help, they want to be a part of the difference, to actually broaden their horizon, their education, their knowledge and grow. And if they can do that, then guess what? The company grows and having that mindset of I can help the company and the company helps me grow, we it's is a win win. It's amazing. So how did CUES do in supporting those goals and what made the relationship really go well? Because it was flexible. As we start talking about the modules and what folks needed, listening was key for me to understand what those modules were, and listening to the 12 about what they needed. That was key. Okay, so we had to talk about initiatives for the organization, PSCU has been growing and growing tremendous. Folks are in their, in their everyday job grinding to get things done. But the next step is about being in that leadership role, the next leadership role for you. How can you grow and how can you be seen? Sometimes African-Americans are not seen. And we call it the silent power, because they are silent, have a lot of power, but just not seen. So this is when we talk about being able to communicate in a way that is team-worthy, right? Because now they consider you a part of the team and your valued, and their hearing your thoughts. And your thoughts may not be so far different. It may be adjusted, in order for us to achieve our goal. And so to be flexible. Here, folks out, pace yourself, they'll pace, you guys will pace each other and arrive at the finish line the same time.

 

Tony Covington  16:20

Teamwork makes the dream work, say it all the time. I have an acronym for team: together, excellence always materializes, man, and maybe it's my years of playing sports. I'm just a team-oriented person. But I truly believe in the power of working together and it makes my heart smile that there was so much teamwork and camaraderie with the relationship. But you know, that's that's how we are CUES, you know, we we those team with a team good teammates. So what do you say, were the top three outcomes of the program?

 

Marvin York  16:51

Excellent. That's excellent. Marvin, before we get you out of here, I want to close with a segment we call message in a bottle. What that is, what is the message that you would leave to your younger self? I'm going to say that the C-team understands who we are, people of color in the positions that would put us in our by means are definitely in powerful positions, running the company, doing a stellar job. And the outcome of that is that they're being recognized. They're being recognized by being the program, they're being recognized by the other, their peers, and the overall organization, about these are our leaders that are color, of color, and they will continue to strive for excellence. So they're really looking for PSCU is looking for how to continue to grow that. And for that growth, with the growth of PSCU should mirror each other, that we continue to see that young girl then blossom along with the company. I was talking to one of my menteew, that was probably in their late 20s. And they said to me, when talking to a billionaire, and they said, What would you do? What would you tell your younger self? And they said, to dream big, and say dreaming is while you are asleep I said. So while you are awake is where action happens. So make the action happen. Get it done. Start getting it done quicker. Make acknowledge what you want to get done, set that goal. Get it done. Wake up mad every day.

 

Tony Covington  18:42

Love it. Absolutely love it. I really appreciate your time today, Marvin. is there anything else you'd like our listeners to know before we wrap it up?

 

Marvin York  18:53

PSCU is a great place to work. And we love the partnership between CUES and PSCU. I see this being a program that will actually change the industry. And I'm happy to be a part of that with CUES. Thank you so much, Marvin, we really appreciate you being on this show. I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed talking to you and in talking about this partnership, because it is important that the work that we all do, we need partners, we need great partnerships, and no one can do it all alone. So thank you so much for the partnership with PSCU in this particular program as well. Thank you so much. I did want to mention AACUC. I'm on the board of directors there. And that industry look gives me all of the the support that I have for them across the industry actually means a lot for me to be able to bring that back to PSCU and to cultivate the candidates that we actually have here. And going forward, making sure we have a pipeline to that African-American world and people of color and follow that back to PSCU to enrich them. So I just want to say that because that's important.

 

Tony Covington  20:10

Great. Thank you so much, Marvin, really appreciate you and the work you do.

 

Marvin York  20:15

Thank you.

 

Tony Covington  20:17

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to today's episode of the CUES Podcast. And many thanks to Marvin York for sharing such great perspective on Black leadership, especially the details about the PSCU Bold Effective Leaders Program.  You can find PSCU on the web at PSCU.com. PSCU is CUESolutions silver provider. If you'd like to learn about becoming a CUESolutions provider or a CUES Supplire member, or how to sponsor CUES content, please email westonk@cues.org That's w e s t o n k@cues.org. If you would like to read the shownotes for this podcast and a full transcript, please visit CUmanagement.com/podcast 126 or look on the landing page for this show on the talentED.org blog. You can also find additional leadership development content on CUmanagement.com and talentED.org. Please check it out.  If you're a CUES member, you have access to invaluable membership benefits to further enhance your development. Many CUES membership benefits, including the Harvard MangeMentor course leveraged by the PSCU Bold, Effective Leaders Program discussed in this show are available virtually. Make sure to visit cues.org/membership to learn more.  To learn more about TalentED offerings for talent development for leaders in the nonprofit space, please visit talentED.org  Thanks again for listening today. CUES is an international credit union association. Our mission is to educate and develop credit union CEOs, executive directors and future leaders. To learn how CUES can help you realize your potential, visit cues.org today.  TalentED, powered by CUES, provides quality education and development to nonprofit organizations. Raising your overall level of talent allows you to sustain your mission for the long term. Learn more at talentED.org.

 

CUES 125: Diversity, Equity and Inclusion as a Differentiator—an Interview With Steve Bugg 

Wed, 12/29 10:19AM • 40:04

By Steve Bugg

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:04

You're listening to the CUES Podcast, episode 125.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:15

Thank you, CUES podcast listeners, for tuning into the CUES Podcast. As you know, on the CUES Podcast, you can hear from a wide range of cross-industry experts discussing trends and topics relevant to you. My name is Lisa Hochgraf, and I'm senior editor for CUES and its Credit Union Management magazine. I will be your host today.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  00:38

So I'm curious if any of you set a New Year's resolution? And I wonder if any of your resolutions have to do with leading a diversity, equity and inclusion initiative at your credit union in 2022? On today's show, we'll be talking about the DEI journey of billion-dollar Great Lakes Credit Union in the Chicago area. Our guest, CUES member Steve Bugg, is president and CEO of Great Lakes Credit Union, which recently earned the distinction of being named the first-ever CUES DEI: Catalyst for Change Award recipient. You can learn more about the CUES recognition programs, including the DEI Catalyst for Change Award at cues.org/awards. 

 

Lisa Hochgraf  01:17

Bugg became president and CEO at Great Lakes about three years ago after spending more than a decade on the leadership team of Heritage Federal Credit Union in Indiana. In the show, Steve talks about how his organization has gone about taking its first steps to formalize its diversity, equity and inclusion program as a way to drive better business outcomes, create an ever-better place to work and, most importantly, better serve the credit union's members and communities. Steve offers great support and ideas for credit union leaders who might feel overwhelmed about starting out on a DEI journey. So listen for that. And also be sure to listen for the fun story at the end about the very special necktie Steve wore when he accepted the DEI Catalyst for Change award. So let's get started.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  02:17

Welcome to the show, Steve.

 

Steve Bugg  02:19

Thanks for having me on the show, Lisa. It's a pleasure to represent Great Lakes Credit Union and its staff today with you.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  02:26

Congratulations on Great Lakes Credit Union being honored with the first-ever CUES DEI: Catalyst for Change Award.

 

Steve Bugg  02:33

Thank you, Lisa, from all of us, from our board of directors, the leadership team, our DEI employee engagement committee and our staff. We're really humbled to have been recognized with the first-ever CUES DEI: Catalyst for Change Award for our DEI journey. I do realize that a lot of credit unions are making great strides in regards to DEI and really for us to be considered for the award amongst all of those other credit unions is just really simply amazing and we're thrilled with the recognition.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  03:03

It's very deserving, Steve. So before we get into talking more deeply about diversity, equity and inclusion and your journey, I'd like to help our listeners get to know you a little bit better. The way I often do this is by inviting our guests to share a professional quote or a mantra that they live by. Would you have such a quote or mantra to share?

 

Steve Bugg  03:23

Sure. So for life in general, I like to always say you should be who you are, and say what you feel. So generally, in business, my leadership style is very open, honest and transparent. So I tell the team that I directly lead that I really have three leadership attributes that I really focus on with them. One is I try to be a consultant a lot of times and just providing them information or different things to think through. The second is really more to try to sell them on a concept or something, I think that for the credit union, we may want to take a look at and then occasionally, yes, I do have to pull out the tell and really provide that direction. And sometimes that is needed, but I really try to rely on that attribute a little bit less than being a consultant and/or selling. And so sometimes I really find about with my direct leadership style that becomes very clear to them on what of the three options they're really looking at, and that they need to explore.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  04:24

Thank you for those quotes. I feel like your first one that you live with all the time, in professional and personal life fits beautifully with the DEI conversation we're gonna have today. And the second one makes me think that people must like being led by you.

 

Steve Bugg  04:38

I hope so. Right. But I will say the quote was interesting. So when I first joined GLCU, the board when I interviewed had asked me the same question you asked, and so I told them that and, you know, they paused, commented, moved on. About six months later, I hosted a get-together for our board and one of our board members presented me with this beautiful, engraved serving tray made out of wood. And that quote was ingrained in the middle of that board with my hire date at GLCU. And I thought, really remarkable No. 1 for him to remember that, and he was a newer board member at the time. But I still treasure that and have that today, three and a half years later. And I really felt like that quote resonated with the board, in particular him. But certainly it is that mantra that I live by as well.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  05:30

That's a great story that goes with your quote. I just love that. Now to kick off the meat of the matter, I'd like to ask you about the inspiration or the motivation that made you launch the diversity, equity and inclusion initiative at your credit union. What was, shall we say this is the wordsmith playing with words, the "catalyst" for your credit union’s work in this area? Why did you tackle this when you did?

 

Steve Bugg  05:52

So realistically, Great Lakes Credit Union has really been committed to diversity, equity inclusion more than 80 years ago when the credit union was started. And we have always served a very diverse membership base in the Chicagoland area. And we started back on the naval base, Great Lakes, that's where our name came from, but then expanded out into the communities and then also through merger and acquisitions have rolled in other SEGs, other community credit unions, and again, really serve that diverse membership. So in the past, up until about the last year, our functional business units really worked on DEI initiatives under their own foundation for their functional area. And then we made the strategic decision that we needed to bring them all together under one pillar. So we have strategic pillars. And so our fifth pillar is our financial empowerment pillar. And so that really fits with what our DEI initiatives under so we brought them from the functional business units now under the one pillar, which allows the entire organization from our board through the leadership team and the staff to understand how we're pulling all of these initiatives and efforts together as we continue on that DEI journey. One thing that we realized: A lot was being driven by our board of directors and our leadership team, but we were missing that component from our employees. They'd make suggestions here and there, but it wasn't formalized. So a few months ago, we decided that we would bring an employee engagement group together to volunteer to serve on a DEI committee, where they would help develop a strategy for our DEI initiatives, where they'd help educate our internal members, our external members, and pull our community activities and events for DEI under the strategy. So we had a lot of employees raise their hands to participate. During that time, it was a lot of remote work. So their committees met virtually until recently we started coming back, but they decided that they wanted to really first start with the things that we were already doing, but educating the rest of the organization on what those initiatives and efforts were, and then expanded on educating internally, our employee-owners on what DEI really is for the credit union, and then how does that not only help us as an institution, but what does that really mean in the community? And they spent a lot of time talking to external sources on DEI as they were strategizing. We also have our chief administrative officer, Michael Hurst, who is the executive over that team. So he can help guide them on our strategic initiatives to make sure that they're folding their opportunities that they're exploring into that overall strategy. And so through this process, we started really our new DEI journey by bringing together our employees, our community stakeholders, as well, to really make sure that we don't forget who we serve, and that we continue to bring into our strategy those DEI initiatives as they evolve and change and as we as an organization evolve and change as well. So kind of more of that formalization of our DEI committee was a more structured approach strategically to ensure that all of the diverse voices of our members and employees are present in everything that we do at Great Lakes. And so that committee of diverse set really, our representatives have that voice now and enhancing our strategies, communicating the achievements, educating our employees, and then certainly driving forward with the engagement of our communities that we serve. 

 

Lisa Hochgraf  09:44

I really like this idea that Great Lakes credit union has this long history of serving everyone in its membership and thinking about everyone in its membership. I feel like that's something that other credit unions who are maybe feeling a little intimidated by getting about getting started on a formal DEI journey might be able to take stock in and say, "Well, that's a root that we have too. We work hard to serve everyone and to serve everyone in our membership well, and that's what Steve at Great Lakes Credit Union did is they looked at that, and then they formalized it. So it's more of taking something that you do already and focusing on it, giving it structure. Is that a fair statement to offer to other credit unions that are thinking about this?

 

Steve Bugg  10:23

Yes, Lisa, I think that really is something that all credit unions, if they stop and think through what they already do, and what they've done for years, and look, internally, they'll find that they're already doing initiatives that would fall under Dei, and it's through the financial literacy, financial wellbeing programs that credit unions offer, it could be a select product or service. So for example, at Great Lakes, we have a payday lending alternative at a lower interest rate. And that fits that diverse segment of the population that we serve. We also have a bank on national certified checking account. So a lot of credit unions have second chance checking accounts, which are very similar and would fit that need as well. So a lot of times, it's just stepping back and looking through a different lens at your organization. And in taking those tidbits of information, and then bringing those together to more formulize what that strategy should look like. And I think many credit unions, Lisa, to your point, would be amazed that they're already doing some great things internally and externally, that would fall under a formalized DEI strategy.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  11:37

I'm kind of wondering too, if you feel like formalizing your strategy has helped you go deeper, like to push it out through the whole organization, sounds like from what you were saying earlier? Or maybe to examine it through some new lenses. Would you say that formalizing has helped you with that?

 

Steve Bugg  11:52

Yes, I would agree that formalizing the DEI strategy and bringing it together does create more awareness internally, through all stakeholders, including our board and staff. And then also in the community, it has really opened a lot more doors for us as an organization. When we really started formalizing and focusing on a DEI strategy, instead of having functional units going out and doing their own thing, we're able to bring that back under that one pillar, and then the whole organization understands it, they're focused on it. And then that's something that we live by under our people helping people philosophy. And so it's easier for our staff to clearly understand and tell our story, right? So I always tell everybody, this is a great opportunity to develop your elevator pitch. And you don't have to be an expert on every product and service and everything we do. But you need to know enough where you can educate someone if you're in an elevator with them for five minutes, and then point them to that expert, right? So it does help us really strategize the focus of what DEI means to us. And then we can point to those examples that already exist. But it also has opened up our eyes looking through a different lens on other opportunities that we need to explore that would fall under DEI.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  13:13

So this is wonderful. I would like to talk a little bit about some of the things that I saw when I looked over your application for this award. For example, I saw that you aspire to adopt tangible sustainable DEI goals, policies and practices that are guided by your organizational mission, rooted in your core values and aligned with your strategy. That sounds really good. The question is, What do you mean by sustainable?

 

Steve Bugg  13:39

The definition that I use for sustainable, Lisa, is something that really stands the test of time, and that it's not viewed as a flash in the pan, or a reactive movement that eventually just kind of goes along the wayside or potentially fades away. So it goes back to what we were talking about earlier in formalizing a strategy. But once you formalize that strategy, just like we do for our credit union operations plan, we have to have goals and objectives. And then we have to have that access to those tangible resources, such as people and dollars, right? So capital, it could be human capital could be financial capital, and that's required for any organization. And the same thing stands true for a DEI strategy. It's just not going to happen on its own. So you have to make sure that you're providing as an organization, the right resources for those initiatives, efforts that you want to accomplish over time. And it's important to weave that DEI strategy into your daily decision-making and that overall credit union strategy because it is a journey. It's not just one thing, we checked the box and we move on. And we don't want it to become something that employees say, "Well, we're just going to work on this on the side because then we know what happens to those sort of initiatives." So it's something that you have to make a decision that you're constantly going to think about intentionally when you're working on your strategies. And we look at it in our project plans when we're looking at new products and services. One of the things we ask ourselves is, is that going to assist on our journey of moving DEI forward, and part of us formalizing the plan also brought to realization, for example, that in our vendor due diligence, we didn't have a question that asked potential partners about DEI, or are they a minority-owned business? So we've added that into our vetting of partners and re-vetting of existing partners on are they minority-owned, but also we ask them, What are you doing for DEI? Does that matter to you? And if you do have a strategy, can you comment on that strategy? So it helps ensure that the partners we choose to do business with align with our mission and our goals and objectives. And we have found since we've started that practice a few months ago, it opens our eyes as well to finding those partners that really align well with our organizational culture that then we know are really in it together with us to move the organization forward.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  16:18

It's a great example of a new way to cooperate, a new way to look at being partners. I like that a lot. In the materials for your application, you said that one of your expectations for the DEI program at Great Lakes would be that the policies and practices put in place for it would reshape the credit union's culture and help to strengthen the credit union's ability to carry out its member promise. So how have you seen the credit union's culture change, and what is stronger now about Great Lakes' ability to deliver on its member promise?

 

Steve Bugg  16:49

Sure, Lisa. So our employees, just like the members we serve, are very diverse. They have varying opinions, and they come from certainly all kinds of diverse backgrounds. So it's very rewarding to see them come together around the DEI initiatives, even those that have joined our DEI committee joined for different purposes. But the common thread is, diversity flows through their commitment to serve on that committee, but they were brought to that committee because of what diversity means for them, which does mean different things to different folks. And so they're interested to learn from each other, as they really engage in more respectful dialogue. When we announced the CUES award to the entire credit union, we all celebrated together. And it was really special and exciting as a leader to see that excitement built with our board of directors and our staff. And so we carry that excitement and that collaboration forward and know that it will really aid us in working closely together. And as a result of internally, the team working on DEI initiatives and efforts and celebrating those successes, we know over time, that journey will have a direct impact on the members we serve. But also it's not only about the members we serve, we look at DEI as how can we empower the communities we're part of. Even if you're not a member of the community, we want to make sure that we're providing you those tools and resources for financial empowerment, regardless of whether you decide to do your banking with GLCU. And so the member service we provide, right, it's really cause-related marketing really will resonate even with members that say, you know, what, I may not be as interested in some of these initiatives and efforts, but I want to bank with someone that I know cares about those in the community. So we kind of tie them in under the brand as well. And then we know also because we're listening to our members, we're better able to emphasize what we want to focus on with our membership, because they're then giving us that feedback that's gonna help us even develop a stronger journey under what DEI means to us and the communities we serve.

 

Steve Bugg  16:55

I love that it sounds like this effort, this journey is putting you in a better dialogue with your communities and with your members.

 

Steve Bugg  19:14

Right. And I think the phrase I like to say is, "It's more cohesive," so it ties our strategies together. So it's kind of that that cohesive environment that then over time ties the employees together. Certainly it ties us to the membership and the community. But it is something that takes time. And I think a lot of times organizations think, "Oh, this was really great. We're going to flip the switch and it's going to happen overnight." It doesn't as we know, and that is the one advice I'd also give other institutions is you got to stay the course. There's going to be peaks and valleys, right. You work through that and you become stronger by working through those challenges that come up and there will be challenges that come up. But if you view that as an opportunity to explore and have that kind of dialogue, you will be a better and stronger organization because of that.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  20:06

Wonderful. CUES is a  professional development talent development organization. So I thought it was really interesting in your application that another expectation for the DEI program at Great Lakes was that it would be essential for attracting and retaining top talent. Has that happened? What are you seeing?

 

Steve Bugg  20:25

So for us, we view that as a long-term strategy that is really never completed, right. So it's bringing that awareness. But then culturally, it's developing that over time. So in some instances, I think we've done a great job on hiring diverse talent. But I think in other instances, there's opportunity to improve. So that is another reason why we have brought it under the one pillar, so we have more focus. So it's just not one area of the organization doing something on its own. Now, we're all working together on those same goals and objectives that we have. And we know because we want to reflect the diversity of the communities we serve, and that's not only from our employees, that also is our board of directors. So part of our initiative that our board has bought into and they're currently working on is what is the long-term strategy under board governance to have a more diverse board that represents the diversity of the membership we serve? So they're taking a deep look at the board makeup and the committee structure, and where and how over time, can we get more representation from the diversity that we have in our field of membership? So they're working through their committee structure to put programs in place when they're out looking for new committee members, new board members, a set of questions that they would go through when they're recruiting for these roles to make sure that the diversity is there, not only from the communities but from a skill set as well from an educational perspective, which I really applaud that because they are a volunteer board of directors. And sometimes that's tough right to look internally at yourself. And you're a volunteer saying, Hey, I'm not getting compensated at GLCU for this. And so I applaud their efforts in moving this initiative forward, even at the board level. Also, I would say that the board, by working on that, has a greater understanding of how our DEI initiatives impact us internally, from our products, our services, and how we support our membership. And so when we're talking about new product innovation and changes were making, we'll have board members now say, "Oh, I understand that's going to serve this segment of our population," or "I see how this can help support this other demographic that we serve." And I find that very rewarding that the board is tying that now into the initiative that we've put forward on having kind of DEI stand up now on its own under its strategic pillar.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  23:00

I like how you're tying the board into this. I mean, it makes sense that if you look more broadly, you have a bigger pool from which to draw thinking, so you have more opportunities for more ideas. And that's not only true for staff, but also at the board level.

 

Steve Bugg  23:15

I think one other comment on that really quick Lisa is we all know there's a war for talent right now as well. And where we sit in the suburbs of Chicago, as we were talking prior to the call, we know, our employees can look at opportunities, other financial institutions or other companies. They're very plentiful here in the large metro market we're in. So we've got to tie what we do into a cause. Right? And you have to have that passion. And so we really believe DEI is that initiative and effort that we can clearly articulate what we're doing different and how we're making that work for us as an organization. And if we can then appeal to those that are out there looking for opportunities that want to tie into that cause and can see the greater good, they're going to be more loyal employees, because they have that in their heart. They're tying into that. And they're looking at it more than just a paycheck or a short-term role for two or three years. So have we seen the outcome of that yet? I would say no, that's early in our journey. But that certainly is our goal is to be the employer of choice. But that ties back into the causes that we support at Great Lakes Credit Union under our DEI initiatives.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  24:32

It's very clear that you've made a lot of progress and done a lot of thinking and that you're committed to the long haul. So, in this moment, what is the outcome of the DEI program that makes you most proud of your credit union and your team?

 

Steve Bugg  24:46

You know, numerous things come up. That collaboration, that cohesiveness through the team, I think has been very rewarding for all of us here to see how we brought those initiatives from the functional areas together. But the thing that I'm most proud of is the work that we've done in our communities under the initiative. So certainly we've helped a lot of individuals and small businesses throughout GLCU field of membership gain access to additional products and services, education, and in some cases, even basic resources through COVID. We really helped with the three most vulnerable needs that we were seeing our community, which was housing relief, food relief, and then also support of minority-owned businesses, in particular led by females. And an initiative that percolated out of that was an opportunity to work on an incubator project in a diverse market that we serve with a local foundation. And we were the only financial institution that came to the table to play, to help in this incubator project. And through, that initiative, now those business owners are up and running, they're doing well. And they're using that concept to help other local small businesses. And now the foundation can pick that model up and move that into other diverse communities that we know if we're empowering those business owners, the communities are going to be better, and thus, the residents are going to be better as well. So from brand recognition and acknowledgement of what we've done, even though bringing all these initiatives together is recent for us at Great Lakes, we can already see the impact that that's made in a very short time. So I know over our journey that will continue to increase as we build momentum on these initiatives and efforts as well. And we're one of less than 10 credit unions nationally, that is a HUD-certified counseling agency. So a lot of our initiatives and efforts have really focused on what our housing counselors have been able to do in the community. And it's grant-based, they work through our foundation. And so they have supported thousands of households and individuals, especially through COVID, on evictions, on foreclosure relief, and also on assistance programs through the state of Illinois on mortgage assistance, rental assistance. We had to move to virtual counseling. That's worked well. We also now are back to face-to-face. But if I look at that small team, and what they've really accomplished, especially through COVID, but now they're sustaining those efforts, that's impactful to the communities we serve, we partner with the state of Illinois, the city of Chicago, and a lot of the local municipalities in the communities that we serve. And the need for those types of services is great. And what I would say to other credit unions, you may not have HUD-certified concerts that are grant-based, that's okay, because it goes back to that point Lisa that we were talking about earlier. It's that financial literacy that is so important. So any organization can empower their employees to be better educated on how they can help those in their community and their membership be more empowered financially. And for us, that certainly has made a remarkable difference when we look at how we compete with everyone else. Because we know today everybody says they deliver great number service or customer service, have to have competitive products or services, have to have a great technology plan. But if everybody else can say the same thing, and a lot of institutions that we compete against here can outspend us, right? What's the one thing that makes us unique and different? This is what it is. It's our initiatives and our efforts under DEI. And it's supported by our employees through financial empowerment. And to us, that does mean our HUD-counseling program, but to another institution, it could be their financial literacy programs, it could be if they have in-school branches. So it's that unique opportunity that you need to find that works for you and your organization, which may be different than the journey we're going down. But it all makes us unique and different and more relevant to the communities and the membership that we each serve.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  29:10

So Steve, from where you are today on the journey, what are your hopes for the future? I know there's not an endpoint, but if you could set some milestones out there for yourself and for Great Lakes Credit Union, what might they be?

 

Steve Bugg  29:22

So it's the continuation building upon the committee. And we have recently brought some newer employees into the committee that raised their hand as they were being onboarded that they'd like to participate. So it's getting new ideas and new suggestions. We still have a lot of opportunity to enhance our products and services to support the diversity in the community, certainly financial literacy and our HUD counseling programs. So we're attaching better measurement metrics to all of the programming so we can then go back and say, "Did this move the needle in the right direction and what does that look like?" So if it's working well, we want to continue it. But if it needs to be tweaked because the results aren't what we thought they would be, then we need to realize that and then change those strategies as well. And then it's also about the new membership that we're gaining. Why are they coming to us? And certainly, we want to measure if they're coming to us because of our cause-related marketing efforts. But overall, beyond us that our leaders today are on the board at Great Lakes, when we leave, we want to make sure that we're leaving the organization in a better place than when we joined. And that we're leaving it for future generations where it's sustainable, and where it's relevant, and where the next set of leaders and our board members can take us to that next level over time. But it's measuring the initiatives, the efforts, tweaking them on our strategies, and in looking at how we can part because we can't do it alone, right. So a lot of our success has been with our community partners. So it's strengthening those relationships, and finding out what other opportunities are there in the community that we don't know about today and then better serving those communities by partnering with others. And we learned that through COVID, where we could join resources with other community foundations and funders that would have a greater impact in the community than just trying to do something on our own. So it's choosing the right partners as well. But it's all about measurement. Right? So we at GLCU use a balanced scorecard to measure our success in multiple areas. And our balanced scorecard is expanded to also help us measure the success of our DEI initiatives and efforts as we continue on that journey. And so we realize that that combined success over time will really allow not only the communities to be more financially empowered, but we also need to do the same thing with our employees. And a lot of times we assume our employees have that knowledge and skill set. But we really know if we step back and look, they don't. So we want to also empower them so that then they can empower the membership and the communities. So to sum that up, it's a continuation. And it's that continual focus of that strategy and how that's woven into the other four pillars that we have as part of our strategies and that we don't lose sight of those initiatives and efforts and that we look at this as an ongoing part of the fabric and DNA of GLCU.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  32:26

I love this idea of measuring, of refining and of keeping on keeping on this really great. So I have kind of a fun question, I think to ask, before we wrap up. I was part of the group that attended the CUES membership program when you accepted the CUES DEI Catalyst for Change Award on behalf of your credit union. And in that moment, on the video, you were wearing a very special tie. Would you tell us about that tie and the decision to wear it at that time?

 

Steve Bugg  32:56

Sure. Interesting fact that you pick that up. So kudos to you, Lisa for picking that up, very observant. So I first purchased that tie and wore it to work when we were early talking about DEI, and how could we look at what dud DEI mean to GLCU? How could we plow through the minutiae of what all these functional areas were working on and bring it together? And a brand new member of our DEI committee mentioned to me on that day that they really appreciated me supporting our DEI efforts and initiatives in the clothing that I wore, and I thought, what? And so it was the tie that tied them into what I was wearing that day, and in their mind and opinion that helps support, in a subtle way, the initiatives that were important to us as an organization. So I would say yes, it was an intentional purchase, but did not make a lot of fanfare of it when we started talking about those initiatives, but very observant from you, but also this employee that picked up on that. So when we were working with our marketing team on the video for acknowledging the award, this employee that was on the committee that had mentioned this and knew about the award had said, "Steve, you're going to wear that tie again, aren't you?" And I said "Of course, do you even need to ask that question?" So that's kind of that shining beacon, so to speak, to really illustrate in a subtle way the support for our DEI initiatives and efforts at the credit union in kind of a manner that reflects the diversity that we want to accomplish at GLCU. And so it's great that you noticed that and picked up on that as well. And I will say one of the initiatives from our committee throughout the year we celebrate events we celebrate acknowledgments. And so part of their education is to bring awareness to different ways that diversity impacts  the community and what it really means to individuals. And so they've used the beacon tie, so to speak, as an example. And so if that can help some others understand how they can support DEI initiatives and efforts, then that's another way that we can help educate those internally at the organization. But again, very observant on your end for picking that up, Lisa.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  35:25

I tried to be observant. That's one of the things that we journalists do try to be. But tell me, I think that the listeners are probably wondering more details about this tie, like, what what does it look like if you're comfortable describing it, and what made it significant to your employee?

 

Steve Bugg  35:40

Sure. So I think we could, right, push all of the listeners back to watching the video of all the CUES awards, so they can see what we're talking about. 

 

Lisa Hochgraf  35:50

We could, and I will put a link to that show in the shownotes for this.

 

Steve Bugg  35:54

But I will say, so the diversity was the colors right of the rainbow that reflect diversity with those that relate to that within our community. And so for some employees, that's very meaningful and purposeful. And so for this one employee acknowledged that and brought that up. And it was interesting, because from some other employees that I would have never probably imagined them saying anything then, they were mentioning that as well, after they watched the video. So perhaps, right, it was when they saw the award ceremony and the video that they tied that back. So it does reflect the diversity that we stand for at Great Lakes Credit Union. And it also shows that as a leader, you're open and willing to accept change, and you're willing and open and transparent as well, knowing that these initiatives and efforts mean a lot to those that we work with daily, because it's not The Steve Show at Great Lakes Credit Union. It's all about the members we serve. And it's about our 225 employees. And I go back to it's that cohesive group that makes us stronger in the long run. And so whatever we can do as leaders to help support those initiatives and efforts, I personally find that very rewarding. And again, I go back to it's all about how we can become more relevant for our staff, and more relevant for the members in the communities as well. And, for us, at least at Great Lakes Credit Union, it's those initiatives and efforts that we're building and have built under DEI, right. And again, I think some of the programs have been in place for years and decades. It's just bringing them together and building more awareness that's really gotten us to this point in our journey and knowing that we need to continue that in the future.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  37:50

Thank you so much for all this insight and information. I will definitely put a link to the video so people can see you accept the award, much deserved, and wearing your tie. Thanks so much for being on the show today.

 

Steve Bugg  38:04

Thank you so much, Lisa. So on behalf of Great Lakes Credit Union. It's really been my pleasure speaking to you today about our dei journey. And I do challenge other organizations to look at your organization through a different lens and I'm sure you'll come up with initiatives and efforts that fit under your DEI umbrella as well.

 

Lisa Hochgraf  38:25

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to today's episode of the CUES Podcast. And many thanks to Steve Bugg for sharing such great perspective on and moral support for embarking on a diversity, equity and inclusion journey. CUES will next offer its Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Cornell Certificate Program Jan. 19 through March 23. As a graduate of this program, I recommend it highly. To learn more and to register for this or another online Cornell program. Visit cues.org/cornell. To read the show notes for this podcast and a full transcript please visit CUmanagement.com/podcast 125. You can also find additional credit union-specific content on CUmanagement.com. To sponsor this podcast, please email weston@cues.org That's we s t o n@cues.org. If you're CUES member, you have access to invaluable membership benefits to further enhance your development, many of which are available virtually. Make sure to visit cues.org/membership to learn more. Thanks again for listening today. CUES is an international credit union association. Our mission is to educate and develop credit union CEOs, executives, directors and future leaders. To learn how CUES can help you realize your potential visit cues.org today.